Suggestion re application of C...

Suggestion re application of CG rules?

Suggestion re application of CG rules? - Page: 5

Thread started by Siglo_v on Friday, 1:18am June 1st with 85 replies. Views: 5,216

terrorv2

2,987 posts

3:40pm Jun 1st 12




VAC can also ban for third-party graphics changers that make your game pretty.

Quote from kla on the 1st of June 2012

Herp derp. Are you dumb? Of course VAC will pick that up, because it is a third party modification to the game.

Quote from terror on the 1st of June 2012

My point is, does that mean someone is cheating? Not necessarily

Quote from kla on the 1st of June 2012

If it gains an unfair advantage over players not using the third party modifications, either due to ignorance or not, then yes, that is cheating.

You are not very bright, head on back to the Tribes forums champ.

unnefer

191 posts

3:46pm Jun 1st 12


And I wouldn't come back with a reply like that because it makes no sense. I understand your point, but mine is, stop arguing it because little will change. As said earlier, a person can be VAC banned for having a trojan on their computer.

Quote from kla on the 1st of June 2012
I am not arguing. I am highlighting the lack of understanding by some game admins who are not enforcing the anticheat policy how it was meant to be enforced.


VAC can also ban for third-party graphics changers that make your game pretty.

Quote from kla on the 1st of June 2012
If you use a third-party graphics changer to gain an advantage in any game, then tbh you deserver to get a VAC ban.

OR, what you guys seem to be suggesting is, we can just CG ban everyone with a VAC banned steam account, whether they hack or not.

Quote from kla on the 1st of June 2012
VAC caught them for hacking - so it is not for you and me to decide if they actually did or not.

And yes, that player should be CG banned - but only as per the CG anticheat policy - a great anticheat policy which actually makes an allowance for the possibility that the player was not cheating/hacking, and instead of giving that player a permanent CG ban on the spot, the CG anticheat policy only requires the player gets a 6 month CG match ban across all ladders.

It really is not that hard to understand.


Either way I'm unsubbing this thread, you all clearly have a very strong point that you will argue to your dying days, so make a ticket or PM Aster.

Quote from kla on the 1st of June 2012
I will continue with my plight to ensure all gaming admins enforce the CG anticheat policy as it is supposed to be enforced - it is the CG policy and all gaming admins are required to enforce it.

It isn't just my POV, as I am confident that not allowing VAC/PB banned hackers to keep playing without punishment is a POV shared by all competitive gamers in all ladders on CG.

I am not doing or saying anything malicous to CG, just asking for clarification on their stance towards cheaters and hackers so that everyone knows explicitly what the anticheat policy on VAC/PB bans is supposed to enforce.

Remember, we come to CG to play the games we enjoy in a competitive, hack-free, gaming ladder. CG tries to ensure this with its CG anticheat policy and the ladder rules. And the CG game admins enforce the CG anticheat policy and the ladder rules.

So it is very important that clarification is made on the things that effect all of us.

Atmosphere

4,786 posts

4:10pm Jun 1st 12

He has 1 VAC banned account.
If he gets anotther one he will face a 6 month ban.
If you actually put effort into watching demos and busting him WITH good evidence he might get banned longer.

At the moment he is clean. Deal w/ it.

Someone lock this alredy this guy clearly doesnt understand common sense.

neg

10,067 posts

4:32pm Jun 1st 12

dix dix dix

unnefer

191 posts

5:04pm Jun 1st 12


He has 1 VAC banned account.
If he gets anotther one he will face a 6 month ban.

Quote from Atmosphere on the 1st of June 2012
And this is the problem right here - that is not how the CG anticheat policy is supposed to work...

1 VAC banned acccount = 6 month CG match ban on all ladders
2 VAC banned accounts = permanent CG match ban

Doing it your way, anyperson on CG can hack all they like without having to worry about being banned until they get 2x VAC bans - and that is stupid mate. You are encourage hackers everytime you type this stupid nonsense.

If you actually put effort into watching demos and busting him WITH good evidence he might get banned longer.

Quote from Atmosphere on the 1st of June 2012
VAC has already done that and banned him for hacking. It is not up to me to do more, it is up to you as a CG admin to now follow the CG anticheat policy and give him a 6 month CG match ban because he got a VAC ban for hacking.


At the moment he is clean. Deal w/ it.

Quote from Atmosphere on the 1st of June 2012
At the moment, Aloe got VAC banned for HACKING. So he deserves a 6 month CG match ban at a minimum.

And TBH, if you actually read and understood the anticheat policy you are supposed to enforce, you'd give Aloe a permanent CG match ban for going to the effort he did in trying to hide the fact he got a VAC ban for hacking and trying to evade a 6 month CG ban.

It is in the policy mate - go read it. Feel free to ask a quetion about what it means and if you need help to understand it, because obvious you just do not get it or understand it at all.


Someone lock this alredy this guy clearly doesnt understand common sense.

Quote from Atmosphere on the 1st of June 2012
So instead of dealing with the matter, and p[roviding clarification on this whole situation to the CG membership, you would rather just lock the thread and leave it unanswered and actually willingly encourage players to go out and hack without recourse until they get 2x VAC bans...

I am starting to wonder how you even made game admin.

Seriously, CG needs a better filtering process for their game admins and whoever is finally selected as a game admin needs to actually understand the anticheat policy and enforce it correctly so cheats and hackers don;t fkn ruin Cybergamer.

Siglo_v

113 posts

5:08pm Jun 1st 12

No the problem is that the rules say one thing but some admins have chosen to apply/interpret those rules differently. The thread is to clarify the position and shed some light on how absurd the interpretation is. Essentially you are saying you get VaC banned once then all is good, get a second one and then you get banned. To be honest I would rather rely on VaC making the right decision than relying on the decision of an admin.

So as far as I can tell we either have to rewrite the rule as I proposed at the start of the thread or the interpretation should move back to how it used to be- ie. one VaC Ban = Cg 6 month ban. So what is it going to be? Fix the rules thereby implementing a clear two (2) strikes policy or implement the rules as they are drafted so that a VaC ban = a Cg 6 month ban.

And everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room. The good hackers (if there is such a thing) toggle their hax on and off. So it is very hard to get the evidence you are after as the hax can be put down to just random coincidence. That is why when you get some one on VaC you should roast them.

I think I might take a subscription to catalyst hax just to see if you guys ever get wise to me. But it is all good because if VaC catches up with me I just make a new account and and I can continue hack because of your two (2) strikes policy. Does that seem fair to everyone? Obviously I wouldn't do this as I am not a filthy piece of scum. I am just making the comment for the sake of demonstrating how messed up the current implementation of the rules is.

l_w_88

6,679 posts

5:19pm Jun 1st 12

No, crow explained it in his first post in this shitty thread, you just can't accept the reality that there's no point in banning someone for shit you can't verify yourself. Like it or lump it that's a logical point, and your attempts to undermine it with "what ifs" are nothing more than cognitive dissonance. Shut the fuck up.

Siglo_v

113 posts

5:32pm Jun 1st 12

Nice term "cognitive disssonance" but sorry no. My point of view is accepted on the 2nd VaC Ban so your attempt to argue logic is lacking. If VaC bans for no real reason then logic dictates we should never rely on a VaC Ban at all (not the first time or the second time or thereafter). Instead CG are saying we won't rely on VaC the first time but we will the second time means they are hacking so we ban them for 6 months.

I am saying that let's cut the bs. One vac ban = one CG ban for 6 months. That is what the rule presently states so why misinterpret that to give additional chances. In my view to do so is weak and encourages hacking.

So you hush now little child.

PS. if you are studying psychology then enjoy your job at MCDonald's.

unnefer

191 posts

5:39pm Jun 1st 12


No, crow explained it in his first post in this shitty thread,

Quote from l_w_88 on the 1st of June 2012
Actually Crow explained his interpretation of a single word is is being used to change the meaning of how the anticheat policy is to be forced.

I am asking for further clarification from the administration above him, because I believe his explanation is wrong and will encourage players to go out and hack - and that is bad for CG and bad for all the CG members who play in a competitive ladder.

And if you think it is shit to ensure players are not getting away with hacking, then you really shouldn;t comment.

Because you either support players game hacking or you dont - there is no inbetween when it comes to hackers.


you just can't accept the reality that there's no point in banning someone for shit you can't verify yourself.

Quote from l_w_88 on the 1st of June 2012
You obviously have no clue at all when it comes to hacking.

The fact that VAC banned him for hacking is more then enough to warrant a 6 month ban in CG matches.

Let me try and make it crystal clear what CG's stance on cheating is (or used to be):


Cheating:

CyberGamer has a strict zero tolerance policy on cheating, members who are caught cheating in any game on any platform are not permitted to compete on our system. As a competitive gaming site we work on a system of trust, once that trust is broken you lose your status as a trusted competitor. We take in evidence from any source as we are bound by no non disclosure agreements so people cheating for the fun of it in a public server will be dealt with no differently than those caught cheating in a match.

Quote from CG ToS
This clearly says CG has a a ZERO tolerence policy on cheats or those caught cheating, regardless of what you think. It also says they will use any source they deem fit as evidence of cheating - and VAC is one of those sources.

So your argument is moot, because Aloe was caught hacking by a source that CG does use and accept for such things. So regardless if I provide evidence or not, it should not make any difference to the outcome - that he got VAC banned for hacking and as such the CG anticheat policy states he is to receive a 6 month CG match ban across all ladders.

Not doing this goes against CG's own ToS that CG has a zero tollerence policy on cheating.


Like it or lump it that's a logical point, and your attempts to undermine it with "what ifs" are nothing more than cognitive dissonance. Shut the fuck up.

Quote from l_w_88 on the 1st of June 2012
It is Tratty, Atmosphere and any other admin who are incorrectly interpreting CG's anticheat policy who are undemining it.

BLACK DYNAMIGHT

4,348 posts

5:47pm Jun 1st 12

This is pretty retarded.

If you say that 1 VAC ban isn't grounds for a CG ban because STEAM doesn't say why you were banned and VAC can be unreliable - then why do you get CG banned when you have 2 VAC bans?

Does VAC become reliable the second time around? Does the evidence of you cheating get released the second time around? If not, then its a retarded system (if it is even the system).

In CoD (the game CG was essentially founded on), if you get PB banned, you are banned from CG competitions. The only way to get around PB bans was to go on evenbalance and talk to the admins there, then if you were cleared, show the CG admins that PB got it wrong. VAC bans should be treated the exact same way.

The 6 month rule was implemented because CG felt banning people permanently was a little harsh, especially considering too many stupid kids kept putting on hacks in a private server and getting PB'd. Yes, this rule allowed deliberate cheaters to enter competitions again, and yes, most of them got banned again pretty much the exact same way as before.

Either CG ban for a VAC ban, or don't CG ban for VAC bans at all. You can't go half way, it is fucking retarded, and anyone who thinks a system where "VAC is wrong the first time around but it must be right the second!!!" is a fucking idiot too.

ringwraith

9,000 posts

6:37pm Jun 1st 12


What's your take on it ringwraith? You've been here since the beginning as well, so I'm sure you can see where I am coming from with all this.

Quote from unnefer on the 1st of June 2012

in all honesty i dont know enough about the rules and situation to have a view worth putting in, ive been away from cg leagues for a while (mostly just play casually now) so would rather leave this to people who have a better idea of whats going on

only thing id say with my limited info on this is you cant really ban someone for an iffy single vac ban. vac isnt exactly the most accurate thing going around

Holey

2,644 posts

7:02pm Jun 1st 12

Really guys?

VAC ban =/= hacking. It might, it might not, we don't know.

And to your ridiculously idiotic statements that 'u are allowed to hack until u get vac banned twice lol' is insane. If VAC pings you twice, we ban you (fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...)

But if you get caught actually HACKING (not just by VAC, but by proper evidence presented to an admin), then you are banned on the spot. VAC has nothing to do with that side of things.

Get it through your heads that VAC has very little to do with getting banned on here unless it happens more than once.

We will NOT rely on a 3rd party, unreliable system that does not give us any information whatsoever.

l_w_88

6,679 posts

7:02pm Jun 1st 12 and edited 7:14pm Jun 1st 12


If you say that 1 VAC ban isn't grounds for a CG ban because STEAM doesn't say why you were banned and VAC can be unreliable - then why do you get CG banned when you have 2 VAC bans?

Quote from BLACK DYNAMIGHT on the 1st of June 2012

One VAC ban can be accidental or a malfunction - two is extremely unlikely to be that.


In CoD (the game CG was essentially founded on), if you get PB banned, you are banned from CG competitions. The only way to get around PB bans was to go on evenbalance and talk to the admins there, then if you were cleared, show the CG admins that PB got it wrong. VAC bans should be treated the exact same way.

Quote from BLACK DYNAMIGHT on the 1st of June 2012

The problem there is you CAN'T get unVAC'd, so there's no chance to prove it wasn't your fault - the chance here is not letting it happen again. The same logic that the PB bans underwent.


Either CG ban for a VAC ban, or don't CG ban for VAC bans at all. You can't go half way, it is fucking retarded, and anyone who thinks a system where "VAC is wrong the first time around but it must be right the second!!!" is a fucking idiot too.

Quote from BLACK DYNAMIGHT on the 1st of June 2012

I'm not sure exactly how thin your understanding of probability is, but I have to say that's complete bullshit. Apart from the fact that's not the argument, the less absolute position is that the first VAC ban may indeed have been caused by "insert excuse here" however the second VAC ban is more likely to indicate that the player is cheating. Which is true.


I don't understand.

Quote from Siglo_v on the 1st of June 2012

That's okay, just try not to resort to childish diatribe next time.

The problem was never that VAC bans for NO reason, it's just that it can't really be trusted, and as such the benefit of the doubt is given to the player. It's a nice strawman though - you don't like the fact a guy got unbanned because the only 'evidence' against him was unreliable, so you attach unnecessary stigma to the idea to make your position look more credible than it is. Nice try.


Actually Crow explained his interpretation of a single word is is being used to change the meaning of how the anticheat policy is to be forced.

I am asking for further clarification from the administration above him, because I believe his explanation is wrong and will encourage players to go out and hack - and that is bad for CG and bad for all the CG members who play in a competitive ladder.

Quote from unnefer on the 1st of June 2012


Ladder admin discretion when it comes to their game, check the rules associated with the particular game in question.

Those global ac rules havent been updated in a very, very long time.

Quote from Crow. on the 1st of June 2012

What part of that do you not understand? Also no, it won't encourage cheating - it just means that if you cheat in pub and happen to get VAC banned they MIGHT consider it a VAC discrepancy and not ban you. That in no way encourages cheating in cybergamer matches, that's sophistry.

"Cheating in non CyberGamer leagues does not make you immune to penalties on the CyberGamer system. If we receive a demo with sufficient evidence from a partner or affiliated league and after our own review confirm the player was cheating. the player in question will be given a one year match ban on the CyberGamer system."
That's the only bit of the cybergamer AC policy that mentions outside sources, and for a very good reason they include the fact they have to make their own review of the demo or footage that actually shows cheating in order to ban somebody. Note they don't say "get banned anywhere else and you're banned here" even during the part "Accumulated Punkbuster or Valve Anticheat (VAC) Bans: 6 month Match Ban
Requirements: the player in question will collect admin notes each time they are required to change their steam/guid because of a ban. It is your responsibility to protect your account with a secure password and password retrieval question. My account was stolen will not be accepted as an excuse." they don't anywhere say that one VAC ban will result in a CG ban because it CAN happen without you being the one that cheats, the same as PB.

They give you the benefit of the doubt until you completely fuck it up and repeatedly hack in pub/get your account hacked/loan it to a friend who gets it banned. It's that way so that players can't claim unfair treatment when they get a VAC ban that genuinely wasn't their fault.


It is Tratty, Atmosphere and any other admin who are incorrectly interpreting CG's anticheat policy who are undemining it.

Quote from unnefer on the 1st of June 2012

In what way? The policy says that a number of VAC or PB bans may be grounds for banning. It doesn't say "one VAC ban and you're out" for the abovementioned reasons. There's no misinterpretation, the rule is completely open to interpretation FOR those reasons.


There's a good reason why none of you are admins, and never should be - you can't understand why something doesn't go your way for no reason. Otherwise known as arguing from incredulity.


Really guys?

VAC ban =/= hacking. It might, it might not, we don't know.

And to your ridiculously idiotic statements that 'u are allowed to hack until u get vac banned twice lol' is insane. If VAC pings you twice, we ban you (fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...)

But if you get caught actually HACKING (not just by VAC, but by proper evidence presented to an admin), then you are banned on the spot. VAC has nothing to do with that side of things.

Get it through your heads that VAC has very little to do with getting banned on here unless it happens more than once.

We will NOT rely on a 3rd party, unreliable system that does not give us any information whatsoever.

Quote from Holey on the 1st of June 2012

Or that.

BLACK DYNAMIGHT

4,348 posts

7:23pm Jun 1st 12


One VAC ban can be accidental or a malfunction - two is extremely unlikely to be that.

Quote from l_w_88 on the 1st of June 2012

No, just no.

If you claim something is "unreliable" or it can "malfunction", it doesn't matter how many times you have problems with it - it is possible each and every time its a malfunction. I am pretty sure admins are only supposed to ban people when its beyond reasonable doubt that they were hacking. At least, that's how admins have been banning in sections that actually followed the anti-cheat rules.

Yeah, it's "unlikely" to have it malfunction twice. I really like your choice of words. Admins themselves don't know what VAC bans are for since they can't see, so using a second VAC ban as grounds for a CG ban is stupid. Does that sound like admins are 99% sure that they got VAC banned for cheats rather than a malfunction? No. That is a flawed system, and any logical person with an education past primary school would realise that.

The problem there is you CAN'T get unVAC'd, so there's no chance to prove it wasn't your fault - the chance here is not letting it happen again. The same logic that the PB bans underwent.


You can't get unVAC'd?

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1385172]

That thread is stickied on VALVE forums. Nice one.

Just incase you can't find it (because you're probably too stupid to):

I believe VAC has made a mistake in banning me - what do I do now?

These forums only offer user to user support and as a result this forum section should only be used to find information on the VAC system. The forum community (including volunteer moderators) are unable to investigate VAC bans. The policy on these forums is that Steam account specific issues must be referred to Steam support. If you believe you have been banned for an unjust reason then you must raise the issue with Steam support. Details on how to contact Steam support may be found below.

Contacting Steam Billing & Support: A Detailed Walk-through.


I'm not sure exactly how thin your understanding of probability is, but I have to say that's complete bullshit.


This was already answered.

And you're correct, probability, check what you write before you wreck yourself idiot.

DO NOT reply ever again in this thread.

terrorv2

2,987 posts

7:28pm Jun 1st 12

Raij with the hail mary.

boom.